Day 3

Treatment: advice from a friend.
Complications: anticipations of painful advice that has not been said (yet?) may hurt more than the actual advice. Solution: don't read into things; don't expect the worst. These are your friends, and they are here to help.

poptartfrank [9:42 PM]:
sunburststrat27 [10:55 PM]: hi
PopTartFrank [10:55 PM]: howdy
PopTartFrank [10:55 PM]: how are you mr. who's name I do not know
sunburststrat27 [10:55 PM]: huh?
PopTartFrank [10:56 PM]: nvm
PopTartFrank [10:56 PM]: tis just been awhile
PopTartFrank [10:56 PM]: lol
sunburststrat27 [10:56 PM]: can you give me 4 min to finish a chem quiz due in 4 min?
PopTartFrank [10:57 PM]: sure
sunburststrat27 [11:01 PM]: oh well. got it wrong. what else is new
PopTartFrank [11:01 PM]: meh?
PopTartFrank [11:01 PM]: and why the pessimism?
sunburststrat27 [11:02 PM]: just getting out the last bit of it. Today was actually markedly optimistic for me, though that's not saying much at this point
PopTartFrank [11:02 PM]: ?
PopTartFrank [11:03 PM]: come on buddy
PopTartFrank [11:03 PM]: what's going on?
sunburststrat27 [11:03 PM]: a lot.
PopTartFrank [11:04 PM]: so are you contemplating or typing where I just can't see it?
sunburststrat27 [11:04 PM]: Kelly and I are currently taking a break in communication until sunday so I can essentially get myself together
sunburststrat27 [11:04 PM]: i guess pidgin doesn't recognize digsby's currently typing or whatever
PopTartFrank [11:04 PM]: for what reason?
PopTartFrank [11:04 PM]: digsby?
PopTartFrank [11:04 PM]: dont answer the last one
PopTartFrank [11:04 PM]: I will look it up later
sunburststrat27 [11:06 PM]: because I realized that there are deficiencies about myself that only I can solve and that in order to do that, it would be really helpful to quiet my life as much as possible (I even stopped going on facebook until then) and just figure out who I am and who the person is that I want to become
PopTartFrank [11:06 PM]: well that doesn't make sense, they use the pidgin library, I just think you dont have it enabled. whatever, worry about it later
PopTartFrank [11:07 PM]: what deficiencies?
PopTartFrank [11:07 PM]: what realization?
sunburststrat27 [11:08 PM]: to calmly approach frustrations, even small ones, in a mature way. Things overwhelm me too quickly and too easily, and that leads to a feeling of powerlessness, which leads to hopelessness, which leads to eventual apathy and laziness, which doesn't change anything
sunburststrat27 [11:09 PM]: this happened with my pursuit of God, with trying to get rid of some temptation that has been attacking me for a little less than a couple years now, as well as my communication with Kelly
PopTartFrank [11:09 PM]: was this something you felt through self reflection or do to conversation with Kelly or someone else?
PopTartFrank [11:09 PM]: what happened?
PopTartFrank [11:10 PM]: as for temptation, this the same as lusting, or something else?
sunburststrat27 [11:13 PM]: self reflection. That is why I chose to not talk to her for a few days, so I could learn how to talk to myself. Because if I don't understand myself, how am I supposed to communicate from myself to Kelly?

Kelly and I had a phone conversation in which I told her my plans to start seeking after God more actively, but I sounded unmotivated and extremely apathetic about it (follow the chain of events noted above, and that's how I got to be apathetic about it). It was more a feeling of hopelessness that anything would really change. She saw this and was utterly discouraged with me and strongly considered breaking up with me (also after the advice to do so by a few close friends). She told me this, and that was when I knew that I needed to take serious action to first understand who I am, and then start the journey of becoming who I should be.
sunburststrat27 [11:13 PM]: lust, yes, that's a stronger more fitting word for it. something that didn't really have anything directly to do with our relationship, but something that externally was tearing it apart through me.
PopTartFrank [11:14 PM]: How would that not have to do with the relationship? furthermore, why take serious action now? What is so important now? Isn't it all just the same?
sunburststrat27 [11:16 PM]: isn't what all just the same? It does have to do with the relationship, but it's not something that originated between us, it's something in my life that carried into it, hence becoming indirectly a part of the relationship, though after second glance the line between the two is almost indistinguishable. What's so important now is what has been so important all along. The only reason I'm changing it now is because I don't have a time machine to go back to when I should have.
PopTartFrank [11:18 PM]: "Isn't it all just the same" as in "Why take serious action now and not earlier." However, you seem to have indirectly answered this.
PopTartFrank [11:18 PM]: How coherent have your thoughts been then sir?'
sunburststrat27 [11:20 PM]: are you satisfied with the indirect answer or would you like more?
a lot more since this mini-break (if you will) has started. I have forced myself to focus and spent a lot more deliberate time in prayer, introspection, Bible reading, and I know that it is actually going somewhere. Although greatly disturbed on many deep levels, I have been able to quiet myself.
PopTartFrank [11:21 PM]: quiet yourself how? disturbed how?
sunburststrat27 [11:23 PM]: being honest with myself rather than clouding my thoughts with distractions every time I see a problem in me like being immature in communication and unwilling to accept any answer as good enough or acceptable. Understanding how I work and spending time trying to figure it out, rather than leaving it as a mystery that I think unsolvable and giving up by saying I just don't know.
PopTartFrank [11:25 PM]: immature in conversation how?
sunburststrat27 [11:25 PM]: disturbed because my mind has been torturing itself with images and feelings of with of what it would be like without Kelly.
PopTartFrank [11:25 PM]: if the break is until Sunday, do you think that will be enough time?
sunburststrat27 [11:26 PM]: in the sense that there are some times when I ask a question and want an ultimately specific answer in return and don't accept any other answer type than the one that I want.
sunburststrat27 [11:26 PM]: notably in open-ended situations when more ambiguious/malleable answers may and probably should be given
PopTartFrank [11:27 PM]: What is it that you intend to hold onto in your relationship if you have previously been so skeptical and disrespectful to it?
sunburststrat27 [11:41 PM]: first off, in recent introspection and communication with kelly over not last weekend but the one before that, I have disqualified my previous skepticism. It was below stupid, it was short-sighted, utterly selfish, and did not take into account more than a pointless detail here and there. As for the disrespect, that is not something I can merely disqualify like skepticism which can be answered; to change what it was about myself that drove me to disrespect Kelly in the way that I did is a matter of spiritual concern. Shortly, I need to find God. If I was at all acting like a Christian or someone who even has God's love at all, then I would not have looked past all the beauty, patience, and loyalty that is in Kelly (to the degree of which I do not think I would ever be able to find in anyone else) to become selfishly fixated on a minor genetic detail (I cannot even call it a flaw, because it is not). I intend to hold onto what good our relationship has brought: we encourage each other in very different ways, and though our communication still needs a lot of work, we are able to communicate more openly to each other than with anyone else (because I trust her more than anyone else); I do not want to throw away how much she has pushed me to think for myself in my own beliefs (which has caused me to part from a lot of them because I realized that I was living the faith of another person and not that of my own conviction). I will not let myself lose her, and I do not want to let go of the potential that we have for keeping each other spiritually strong and close to God, even if that means temporarily separating ourselves from each other as we are now to accomplish that end (and on that note, I think until Sunday will be enough to get a good start. I have not thought about continuing the break beyond that, but it is something we will have to discuss, and something that God will have to tell me is more beneficial than open communication)
PopTartFrank [11:47 PM]: I understand what you say but am yet weary by how quickly you brush it off. Pointless detail, minor genetic detail. Whatever you describe it as so be it, but you were nonetheless convicted of your feelings at the time. Furthermore, to comment on not letting yourself lose her. Do you find this reasonable? I am not attempting to tear you down, but all of this seems contrary to your demeanor since we last spoke. Do you sincerely believe you can find yourself or God in weekly intervals of breaks? Why couldn't you just constitute your nights to study then? How do you depend on God speaking to you now and prayer if you were beyond skeptical just last week and have failed to answer any of your concerns relative to issues presented to you?
PopTartFrank [11:47 PM]: Are you sure this is not just a feel good moment through all this circumstance?
PopTartFrank [11:48 PM]: How is this different than all the times previous where things were going to change and didnt?
Friday, October 09, 2009 12:04 AM
PopTartFrank [12:04 AM]: Alright bud, I dunno if you've typed anything. I need to catch some sleep for work tomorrow. If you're just sitting there pensive, I challenge you to really dive into the Bible tomorrow. Shoot me an email if you've got something in response, otherwise we'll talk later.
sunburststrat27 [12:04 AM]: I don't brush it off. I used to do that and just try to look past it rather than looking through it, like ignore it rather than coming to terms, accepting it, and realizing that it is a small issue (rather, that it is not an issue at all). The reason that it looks like I am brushing it off is because I realize the foundation I was operating on when I "was convicted of such" and I was convicted, but based on complete selfishness without any thankfulness in the picture at all. Why would I take into account in my present judgments what I was convicted of when my spiritual and mental lives were in shambles and all I cared about utterly shallow beauty. My entire perception was skewed and my claims could not be reasonably backed up by anything. Why would I do anything but brush it off as selfishness and realize that my judgment was not sound at all.
Yes, I find this reasonable. What demeanor are you talking about since we last spoke? I kind of remember, but not clearly at all, to what are you referring? No, I think I can find God in a lot shorter than a few weeks. It's not a matter of time in humbling oneself but a matter of strength and willingness to be completely broken before God. What study do you mean? Bible study? Or are you talking about using my nights or some other part of my day to do what I should be doing daily and setting aside time to talk with God and study the Bible and just be quiet, open, and honest with myself? Yes, this is what I can do and what I need to strive to do. Do I expect perfection? No, but I do expect improvement and change for the better. I will not let myself do nothing as I have done too many times in the past. I just needed some time to really get alone with myself and dive into my mind, figure out what's really the deal between me and God, etc.
First off, why do you assume off the bat that I have not addressed these concerns relative to issues presented to me? What you are saying in this whole thing is somewhat discouraging, but this is by far the worst, when you tell me that I have not changed without so much as asking if anything new has developed in that area. I will wait until you ask about this to answer.
I don't feel good at all through this circumstance. I said it was the most terrifying circumstance ever, and it's taking a lot of resolve not only to function but to actually press forward and seek after God actively. It is nothing like a fire-filled church retreat type experience at all.
the other times i was not as strongly convicted, nor humbled at all. I thought that I just had a few minor tweaks to pull off and that I could do it more or less by myself without relying on God's strength. I didn't admit it to myself that I needed to take massive action. I just thought that it was something that would iron itself out if I gave it enough time. I did not take it seriously. This is different because a catalyst has been added into the reaction, namely, I visibly have a lot more to lose in this, and it scares the living daylights out of me. I know that I need to get serious about this now otherwise things will never change. I envision this as my last chance. I have put Kelly through enough.
Some of the messages you sent may not have been received. 12:04 AM
PopTartFrank [12:04 AM]: umm
sunburststrat27 [12:04 AM]: there's your email
PopTartFrank [12:04 AM]:
(12:04:11 AM) You missed 2 messages from sunburststrat27 because they were too large.
sunburststrat27 [12:04 AM]: shoot
sunburststrat27 [12:04 AM]: the message was too big
PopTartFrank [12:04 AM]: yup
sunburststrat27 [12:04 AM]: I don't brush it off. I used to do that and just try to look past it rather than looking through it, like ignore it rather than coming to terms, accepting it, and realizing that it is a small issue (rather, that it is not an issue at all). The reason that it looks like I am brushing it off is because I realize the foundation I was operating on when I "was convicted of such" and I was convicted, but based on complete selfishness without any thankfulness in the picture at all. Why would I take into account in my present judgments what I was convicted of when my spiritual and mental lives were in shambles and all I cared about utterly shallow beauty. My entire perception was skewed and my claims could not be reasonably backed up by anything. Why would I do anything but brush it off as selfishness and realize that my judgment was not sound at all.
Yes, I find this reasonable. What demeanor are you talking about since we last spoke? I kind of remember, but not clearly at all, to what are you referring? No, I think I can find God in a lot shorter than a few weeks. It's not a matter of time in humbling oneself but a matter of strength and willingness to be completely broken before God. What study do you mean? Bible study? Or are you talking about using my nights or some other part of my day to do what I should be doing daily and setting aside time to talk with God and study the Bible and just be quiet, open, and honest with myself? Yes, this is what I can do and what I need to strive to do. Do I expect perfection? No, but I do expect improvement and change for the better. I will not let myself do nothing as I have done too many times in the past. I just needed some time to really get alone with myself and dive into my mind, figure out what's really the deal between me and God, etc.
sunburststrat27 [12:04 AM]: First off, why do you assume off the bat that I have not addressed these concerns relative to issues presented to me? What you are saying in this whole thing is somewhat discouraging, but this is by far the worst, when you tell me that I have not changed without so much as asking if anything new has developed in that area. I will wait until you ask about this to answer.
I don't feel good at all through this circumstance. I said it was the most terrifying circumstance ever, and it's taking a lot of resolve not only to function but to actually press forward and seek after God actively. It is nothing like a fire-filled church retreat type experience at all.
the other times i was not as strongly convicted, nor humbled at all. I thought that I just had a few minor tweaks to pull off and that I could do it more or less by myself without relying on God's strength. I didn't admit it to myself that I needed to take massive action. I just thought that it was something that would iron itself out if I gave it enough time. I did not take it seriously. This is different because a catalyst has been added into the reaction, namely, I visibly have a lot more to lose in this, and it scares the living daylights out of me. I know that I need to get serious about this now otherwise things will never change. I envision this as my last chance. I have put Kelly through enough.
sunburststrat27 [12:05 AM]: are you still leaving or will you reply?
PopTartFrank [12:05 AM]: I can reply if you'd like
PopTartFrank [12:05 AM]: afterwords however I should go
sunburststrat27 [12:05 AM]: i would if you don't mind
PopTartFrank [12:14 AM]: I do not intend to be discouraging to you. But be honest with me. Have you addressed everything? Have you addressed Frank's issues that he has presented to you and then the ones you have discovered through the classes you are taking? I don't believe it's unreasonable for me to presume you have not mastered these issues, let alone in two weeks since we have spoken. If you have, why are you not with engaging with Frank as we speak? I did not tell you that you have not changed. Look, there is another part of this conversation that will not be perceived as it is intended if it is to take place now. But I reiterate, it is easy to say A, B, C. It's easy to say that something was X, Y, Z. Though it may not be blunt, my suggestion stands that it should be less about what is to be done, and more about doing it. I would further suggest to be weary relative to optimism and pessimism just the same. Does any of this sound unreasonable?
sunburststrat27 [12:23 AM]: I have not solved everything, that's impossible. The addressing that I have done to these issues is that a lot of what I was trying to figure out was not the point at all of the books from which they were taken, and I am a lot better equipped to handle these issues for myself now than I ever have been because I am approaching it from an individual level between me and God, not from thinking about how much of CLA's beliefs I would have to give up in order to see it this way or that. In terms of God's justice, yes, I have addressed it, but not in a way that Frank or anyone else that thinks human morals are above God's morals. Have I solved the problem of evil? No, otherwise I would be rich and famous after writing a theological dissertation on it. I am starting from the right instead of the wrong place now, meaning, that I trust God, even when He kills hundreds of thousands of people, even when those who wrote about Him in His own Bible seemingly have contradictory statements about Him. This does not take away from my trust in Him, because in order to understand God at all, I need to begin with this trust, this belief in Him, and not with my own mind which would only say that God has the possibility of doing evil. Most of these issues are not something that can just be logically solved, otherwise someone would have done it already and they wouldn't be debated over and over and over. They come down first and foremost to faith, which I was desperately lacking before. I didn't trust nor believe God, and now I do. I don't credit myself with this at all. God has given me the belief after painfully showing me that I cannot come to His wisdom of all these issues without that first initial faith and belief.
sunburststrat27 [12:24 AM]: this is why i didn't want to talk to kelly throughout this time. because I am doing and not just promising her i will be doing
PopTartFrank [12:25 AM]: why did you act so put off by my presumption if such was rightly factual then?
sunburststrat27 [12:25 AM]: what needs to happen before "Look, there is another part of this conversation that will not be perceived as it is intended if it is to take place now" what you reference here can be perceived correctly?
sunburststrat27 [12:25 AM]: because you didn't even give me a chance
PopTartFrank [12:25 AM]: what chance?
sunburststrat27 [12:26 AM]: see above
PopTartFrank [12:26 AM]: this is a matter of persecution then, not reason or logic
sunburststrat27 [12:26 AM]: hm? who is persecuting/being persecuted?
PopTartFrank [12:27 AM]: I believe it is a matter of fact that neither you or anyone has solved the issues of theology - is that sarcastic or serious? If serious I intend "How can you criticize me for my statement if it is the case? It was not incorrect."
sunburststrat27 [12:29 AM]: but you said "addressed". i interpreted that as not having solved, but having put enough thought into something that one can stand firmly about it and not be unstable about it
sunburststrat27 [12:29 AM]: a lot of people address God's justice or things like that to themselves without really solving it universally
sunburststrat27 [12:30 AM]: oh, it was serious
PopTartFrank [12:30 AM]: same thing
PopTartFrank [12:30 AM]: lets work with addressed
sunburststrat27 [12:30 AM]: ok
PopTartFrank [12:30 AM]: have you addressed everything
PopTartFrank [12:30 AM]: ?
PopTartFrank [12:30 AM]: via your operational definition of addressed?
sunburststrat27 [12:32 AM]: only so far in the sense that I trust God about it, even though I have to say that I don't know about things like whether creation took place over days or billions of years. I am in the right place now to be able to approach these things. There are some things that I have addressed, but not all.
sunburststrat27 [12:33 AM]: i think I'm missing something. if you knew it was impossible to address all these issues, then why did you ask if i did?
PopTartFrank [12:35 AM]: perhaps we shall reserve this conversation for person. A dialogue is a poor method to portray body language and tonal expression. I believe there is a miscommunication taking place. When do you come home next?
sunburststrat27 [12:36 AM]: it would be to visit laura on the weekend of i think the 23rd or 24th, i need to double check
sunburststrat27 [12:36 AM]: can I ask you two things before you go?
PopTartFrank [12:36 AM]: sure?
sunburststrat27 [12:37 AM]: "Look, there is another part of this conversation that will not be perceived as it is intended if it is to take place now" what needs to take place in order for you to bring this up? I don't know what it is, but I would rather just get it out there and have time to ponder it and pray about it over a longer period of time.
and lastly, do you really believe that I will change?
PopTartFrank [12:38 AM]: The first I believe to be a factor of conversation. This really is a miserable medium to express anything. On that behalf. No, I will not put it out there. We shall converse about it when the time is appropriate.
sunburststrat27 [12:39 AM]: and the last?
sunburststrat27 [12:40 AM]: (also, do you mind if I post this conversation as a blog post? I'm trying to make a log of my thoughts throughout this process)
PopTartFrank [12:41 AM]: As for change. I believe everyone is in a conditioned flux sir. The question is are you conditioned to change or remain stagnate? If you find yourself in the category by which you would rather not, the question becomes one of conditioning. Can you change you conditioning into one of authentic refinement? It is not that I do no believe you will change. We have not necessarily even spoken about what needs to change. Not specifically at least. If you find a way to refine your being rather than what you perceive of yourself, sure thing. But I believe you need to first discover self authenticity, self honesty before you can reflect on what you want to do with it
PopTartFrank [12:42 AM]: In other words, it's not as simple as yes or no. It too is a matter of convictions
PopTartFrank [12:42 AM]: Sure thing, knowledge is free. Do as you please with it. I however challenge you to understand some communication, if dare say I more than some, was amiss during our conversations
PopTartFrank [12:43 AM]: take what I said with a grain of salt and we shall have a more accountable conversation in the future, sound good?
sunburststrat27 [12:43 AM]: i sure hope so... i'm just very afraid of what you didn't say.
PopTartFrank [12:46 AM]: quiet your anxiousness and don't read into it. I just don't trust aim with properly portraying ones thoughts in such a short time with so little words. I believe the conversation that has taken place to be relatively simple and yet miscommunication takes place.
sunburststrat27 [12:48 AM]: For too long has my anxiety ruled me. Now it's my turn to rule over it. I trust you Rob, and I look forward to actually having this conversation in person, no matter how painful it will be.